ROSS GREENWOOD, HOST: With me right now, the Shadow Treasurer Chris Bowen. Many thanks for your time, Chris.

CHRIS BOWEN, SHADOW TREASURER: Always a pleasure, Ross.

GREENWOOD: Right, so that analysis that Ive given, a snapshot of the Budget tonight, the money that the Government technically has is also money that you technically have to either fund election promises or to manage, to repair the Budget deficit and the debts that Australias has got. But of course, youve also got other measures in place already which include cutting out negative gearing, changing capital gains tax rules all these things actually add even more money and scrapping the company tax cuts the Government wants to get through. Does this mean youve got more ammunition for even more tax cuts in the future?

BOWEN: Well, it certainly does mean that weve got the flexibility. Weve done the hard work, weve made the hard decisions. Were not scrapping negative gearing, were reforming it, but nevertheless your point is valid. We have said the Budget needs repair and that difficult decisions are necessary and that means we can look at the tax cuts the Government is proposing more responsibly than they can and it also means we can have a better return to Budget balance than them and we can engage in a more serious effort of Budget repair. Weve done these things because theyre right, they make the tax system fairer, but they also make the Budget better.

GREENWOOD: Ok, so it would appear on the numbers weve seen today that the Budget is basically in repair, it comes back to surplus one year earlier now. I do admit and understand that going back into surplus does not pay off the debt that weve got with the gross debt out at some $600 billion, the net debt netting off the assets around $350 billion. So the question right now is whether the real priority is to give our tax cuts to individuals who might be struggling with electricity and private health and all that type of stuff or whether the priority is to try to pay down that debt.

BOWEN: Well, we think we can do both because of the decisions weve taken. Now, the Government cant do both. Theyve got tax cuts and Im sure well get to those but the Budget repair strategy of the Government is very thin indeed. We get back to surplus a year early, or balance, thats true, but its wafer thin. I mean, itd blow over in a very light breeze.

GREENWOOD: Its true! Even Id admit that, its no doubt.

BOWEN: International circumstances are spectacular at the moment and if there was a downturn we all hope it doesnt happen but we all know its an uncertain world if there was a downturn, that surplus disappears and the surplus is based on a forecast of a return to wages growth of more than three per cent. Thats far from where we are at the moment. Nevertheless its a good thing that we get back to Budget balance in that year. But we cant put our feet up and say oh look, were back in Budget balance now, all the works done. As you very correctly said, we need to pay down that debt and that means you need good, healthy surpluses, strong surpluses. We dont get to one per cent of GDP as a surplus until almost the end of the decade. Now we need to do better than that. We need to do better than that, Ross. I mean, Peter Costello's surpluses used to bounce around but they sometimes got up as high as two per cent of GDP. One per cent should not be beyond our ambitions with the best global circumstances we've seen in a decade.

GREENWOOD: I was going to ask you about the Treasurer, the former Treasurer himself, Peter Costello, because last night on the 730 Report he has quite clearly indicated that we may never pay off that debt in his lifetime. Now I saw you in Question Time today, it was your first question straight up to the Prime Minister in regards to this. Is it a serious question given the fact clearly now what we've seen tonight is a Budget coming back into surplus, and so at least at the very margin, some of those debts are starting to be curbed.

BOWEN: I understand his point, whether I agree with the way he's put it - I don't agree with every point he made. But I certainly understand his concern because he is saying these surpluses, in effect, are too small. It would take years to pay off the debt with surpluses that small. Now, paying off the debt is a big task, but it should be our approach to get our debt down because we don't want to be paying interest on that debt. I'd rather be spending the money we spend on interest every month on schools or hospitals, on TAFE, on giving people what they need for the skills in this rapidly changing economy, rather than sending it to overseas bond holders.

GREENWOOD It's true, but you would not be blind to the perception out there in many quarters of the Australian community that it was actually the Labor Party that helped to contribute to the debt that Australia has got today.

BOWEN: It has gotten so much worse since the Liberals arrived. I mean, yes we avoided recession - the Global Financial Crisis - and that meant spending money, and that meant debt.

GREENWOOD: But you understand the perception they have got though?

BOWEN: They have now been in office, Ross, for five years. Five years, and the debt that they said they'd reduce is now, as you've pointed out, more than half a trillion dollars. And they have had plenty of opportunities. They won't do tough things like negative gearing, capital gains, all the things we've talked about. We'll do that. We'll actually go to the election as the more responsible party when it comes to the Budget. I say to the Australian people, to answer the question, judge the competing parties on our competing plans.

GREENWOOD: Okay, and I agree entirely that people should do that, but there's one other aspect of that. The Government is putting in place a speed limit of 23.9 per cent of the amount of tax it will take out of the Australian community. We can see it. In your plan, you will not commit to such a number. Why would you not commit to that number?

BOWEN: All he is doing is an artificial limit which says, therefore, that the future generations will be paying off the debt. He's leaving it to the future generations. I actually think we need a concrete plan to take down the debt, not put it off in the never-never. That means difficult decisions. He says he's got this handbrake, but what it really means is that he's not going to get the Budget surpluses that we need.

GREENWOOD: There you go.

BOWEN: Good on you.

GREENWOOD: Chris Bowen is the Shadow Treasurer, thank you so much for your time. I know it's a busy night.

BOWEN: Always a pleasure, Ross.